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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 15:37:50 GMT -5
I've recently done a bit of a writeup for UV on the subject, and ironically, left it mostly unfinished. For now, I'll post what I've got -- and I'll get I disagree in gear on working on the rest of it Hopefully this will help out a few of you in understanding the ins and outs of what I feel is possibly the most dominant build in the current sim.
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 15:41:45 GMT -5
Ropist Theory: Webl 101 dictates that there's 3 types of fighters. Sluggers, Slappers, and Stunners. Normally, Sluggers dominate slappers, but are defeated by stunners. Similarly, slappers tend to beat stunners. Thus is the cyclical nature of the game. Why is this, though? Sluggers are build on efficiency. Every AP point matters -- having 1 point of too much Chin can mean the difference between beating an opponent or losing. Due to this, the most efficient sluggers are build with relatively low chin -- allowing them more points to be spent in STR, AGL, and SPD -- the only areas that contribute to doing damage. This is what makes them susceptible to KPers, but dominant against slappers. Stunners are the KP guys, the ones who may flash at any time. Be it KP Balanced, KP Dancer, or Flasher -- one thing remains the same... at some point in their career, an opponent will end up on their ass when they don't expect it. They prey on the low-chinned without rhyme or reason, allowing their unpredictability to be their biggest strength. Extra points put into KP and CHN lead to endurance disadvantages, but most KP managers will strive to keep endurance out of the equation. Slappers main concern is merely surviving. If they can last the fight, they have enough SPD to win it. Due to their low STR, and normally very light builds, they've got a lot of AGL -- allowing them to run normal chins, but let the AGL help them avoid stuns/KD's/KO's. It's the same logic as using (ring) against a flasher -- boosting your AGL will avoid stuns, and by naturally having a lot, you don't need as much chin. ...So... Creating an endurance fighter that has a lot of AGL allows you to run low enough chin to stay efficient, while not being susceptible to KP. This allows you an opportunity to be effective against both KPers and Sluggers -- leaving a weakness against slappers. ...This can be avoided, however, with a decent build, and a good plan... Gnu was the main guy to teach me ropists, and his suggestion is to keep SPD and STR about the same, and both at about 66% of AGL. This is true, but, there is a bit of room for experimentation. One solid way to start a strawweight is: STR: 14 KP: 0 SPD: 13 AGL: 21 CHN: 7 CON: 13 HGT: 1 BLD: vhvy 7 chin may seem low, but the AGL is more than enough to carry you through. Worried about flashers? Think of the difference in AGL between the two builds, and the boost that (ring) can give. In a worst case scenario -- you can always train it up to 8. As Mean Streets once told me, though, sometimes you will get flashed and lose. If there's anything you can take solace in, when your fighter makes it to Contenders, he'll have a better shot. I do, in fact, take solace in that As the ropist grows, you'll want to keep CHN as low as possible. I've gotten up to 24(24) with it as low as 8 -- without ducking kp. It's all a matter of being able to figure out what you're up against, and how you can best counter it. CON should, for the most part, keep itself in line without you worrying about it. I'd aim for 15 by 18(18), 17 or 18 at the most at 28(28). Aside from that, keep SPD close to STR, and keep AGL proportional to stay in your weight class -- and you've got a pretty solid build. As you get higher in status, you may find that you can stop training SPD to a degree, and just allow the ropist to have more STR and AGL... but it's often best to keep the STR and SPD in line for the ability to sit back on 4B/7/9 or 4B/6/10 lines, and still win rounds. This helps the build immensely, as forcing them to open up while you're dropping their AGL only helps you in the end. More soon...
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 22:09:42 GMT -5
Now, I suppose, best to go into matchups:
We'll break 'em down into 3 basic types:
-- KP -- Slappers -- Sluggers
It's important to realize that advice that's given here is very 'general', and each method should be expanded on to give you the maximum chances over each opponent. Every manager has different tendencies, and to be truly successful, you have to maximize your advantages not only with the build -- but also by exploiting the openings the opposing manager gives you.
Scout each fight independently -- get an idea of the build you're up against. It's easy to classify builds as the name they're given, but often, builds have "gray areas" -- say, a STR or AGL biased balanced. What will beat one probably won't beat the other -- even though they're both balanced.
Enough blathering, I'll start with KP:
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 22:46:05 GMT -5
KP
Main KP builds:
-- Flashers -- KP Balanced -- KP Dancer/Cper
Flashers
By design, a flasher is deficient in CON and AGL in order to pack as many AP's as possible into STR, KP, CHN, and SPD. The goal of a flasher is to KO you within the first few rounds -- before it wears itself out.
Your goal: survive.
Given that you know he's going to try to KO you, and that you have low chin -- you're going to rely on your AGL to carry you through. Thus, (ropes) isn't a valid option, as even though it will lower his AGL more, he's got the CHN to carry himself through it. You'll take -1 AGL, which won't help your cause. (ring) is the only logical choice, and the bonus gained from it should allow you to hide out with high DEF and survive.
You need to figure out what he's going to do, and see what is the minimal defense you can use to not get KO'd. If you find that you get multiple KO's at 16 DEF, you'll probably want to start with 1B/1/18 or 1B/1/17.
There's no reason to target head, you're better off targetting body as you don't have KP. You'll win when the flasher is exhausted, and thus, the 20% damage bonus you get for targetting body is a big help here.
When he's worn out, go for the kill -- you'll find this usually tends to be a fairly easy matchup... even with 7 chin.
A sample plan:
#Stay alive 1) 1B/1/18 (ring)
Target the body for max damage, and just don't get KO'd.
#Wait for the opp to tire 2) if opp = 1 then 2B/3/15 (ring) if opp = 0 then 4B/6/10 (ring)
As the opponent starts wearing down, you can open up a bit more. Not too much, but, if you can get him exhausted by the time you switch to head, you're _going_ to win.
#Prepare to strike back if round = 5 and opp = 0 then 4H/7/9 (ring)
Depending on what you find in simming, you can often go with a line like 5H/10/5 (ropes) here -- but you have to be _sure_ the opp is too tired, or will be resting. With low chn, you have to be wary of how low you drop your DEF. However, by the time they're exhausted, most flashers will be resting -- and you won't need much to lay the final blow on them.
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Post by Evolve <Evil Empire> on Mar 13, 2007 22:51:58 GMT -5
Sardonic, heh, my anti flashing plan is almost identical to that.
Hell, I'll post it, then you can delete my post as to not ruin your continuity...
1) 1B/3/16 (ring) 1) if mystuns > 0 then 1H/1/18 (ring) 1) if opponent = 1 then 5H/5/10 (ring) 1) if opponent = 0 then 5H/10/5 (ring) 1) if endurance_percent < 70 then 1/1/10 (outside)
That's it, used it against almost every flasher and usually they tire themselves out, I have been stunned on the second line, opponent=1, but then KP isn't effected by endurance loss so.....
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 23:15:29 GMT -5
KP BalancedThere are two types of KP Balanced fighters. -- Those who still try to play endurance (Naked) -- Those who slap and flash (See Bangladesh, or my KP Balanced) vs the type that throws power punches: Find your breaking point. Scout the opponent, and see what DEF you'll need to in order to last -- and work from there. Both KP Balanced types like to flash in the early round against ropists, so often lines like 4B/7/9 (ring) or 4B/6/10 (ring) are good ideas. Sometimes you'll find that you can use a line like 4/7/9 (ropes) against an allout -- it's all in the simming. Be as efficient as possible, but be wary of the flash, and you'll wear them out to win. vs the type that slaps and flashes This one is a bit harder. With them running lines like 7/1/12 (outside) or 6/1/13 (outside), their DEF is high enough that you'll have a hard time wearing them down. You need to take a few chances, but try to avoid the flash rounds. Often, lines like 4B/9/7 (ropes) will help do the job -- but often you can't survive with 7 DEF, so you don't want to do this all fight. Attempt to guess the flash round, and stick a 4B/6/10 (ring) or 4B/7/9 (ring) in that round. If they _do_ flash -- even if they stun you, they'll take massive endurance damage, and won't be able to recover. If they don't flash, you'll need to make sure you wear them down enough to outscore them in the end. Watch for late stun attempts from these guys, often the KP makes that an attractive option for them. I can't really give a good fight plan example on these ones, as they're very situational. It's all a matter of being defensive at the proper time, and otherwise, throwing as much power as is logical. You want them to wear down, and the points that they put into CHN/KP should allow you the advantage to do that. Just don't get KO'd!
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 23:17:16 GMT -5
Sardonic, heh, my anti flashing plan is almost identical to that. Hell, I'll post it, then you can delete my post as to not ruin your continuity... 1) 1B/3/16 (ring) 1) if mystuns > 0 then 1H/1/18 (ring) 1) if opponent = 1 then 5H/5/10 (ring) 1) if opponent = 0 then 5H/10/5 (ring) 1) if endurance_percent < 70 then 1/1/10 (outside) That's it, used it against almost every flasher and usually they tire themselves out, I have been stunned on the second line, opponent=1, but then KP isn't effected by endurance loss so..... Feel free to post in the middle Ask questions if need be, and such. I've got no problem with continuity! Why do you target H in the 2nd and 3rd lines?
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 13, 2007 23:33:11 GMT -5
KP Dancers/Counterpunchers
This match is _hard_. Your tactics will be _very_ dependent on the opposing manager's tendencies. Sometimes, you'll want to body allout, sometimes you'll use lines like 5B/10/5 (ropes). It's very tough to accurately pinpoint the proper path to victory in this matchup.
Some KP Dancer managers use set flash rounds, with lines like:
if round = x then flash.
In these cases, it's very possible to sit back on a plan like 1) 3H/6/11 (ring) and just wait for the flash. I don't recommend it often, because it'll make for an embarrassing loss if they don't flash as you expect -- but they allout every fight, you can probably get away with this once or twice.
Some KP Dancers will use endurance and score conditionals to choose when they want to flash. If this is the case, what you want to do is trigger them -- and then be prepared for the flash. You can use something like:
#opp is one power slapping, 7/1/12 (outside) or similar 4) 5B/10!/5 (allout) 5) 4B/6/10 (ring/clinch)
Or, if they consistently flash when down by one in a particular round -- set that up.
4) if score = 0 then 8/3/9 (ring/clinch) 5) if score = 1 then 4B/7/9 (ring/clinch)
Other times, you'll find that after scouting, you can survive the flash with a particular opportunistic line. If you can go with something like 4/8/8 (clinch) and KO him for trying to flash, that's often your best bet.
Be sure to do a scout -- sometimes clinch will be your best bet, and sometimes ring/ropes will be. It's important to have an idea of what you're up against, and figure out how to properly counter their strategies.
All this, you have to do, without letting score get away.
This is a _very_ tough matchup.
Again, there's no good 'base fp' to work from, it's very situational depending on when the opp flashes, what tactics they use, and what their (and your) build are.
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chico
Rookie Fighter
Posts: 26
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Post by chico on Mar 13, 2007 23:48:28 GMT -5
1) if mystuns > 0 then 1H/1/18 (ring) I don't want to derail this thread, but I'm not sure I agree with this line. Think about this way, if you got stunned but you're still standing, you're in a very good position. If he used allout and didn't knock you out, you did a lot of damage to him and you can actually probably drop your defense some with a line like 2B/4/14 (ring) However, if he is capable of stunning you with 5H/11/4 (inside), then it would be a good idea to cover up since an allout is almost certainly coming. I guess it's dependent on the opponent.
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 14, 2007 0:07:39 GMT -5
However, if he is capable of stunning you with 5H/11/4 (inside), then it would be a good idea to cover up since an allout is almost certainly coming. I guess it's dependent on the opponent. It's actually better to stay right where you are. Unforgiven once told me that he didn't mind getting stunned, because it let him know he was doing the maximum possible damage. If they're dropping to 4 DEF, and not KO'ing you -- take advantage of it!
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Post by Evolve <Evil Empire> on Mar 14, 2007 0:27:44 GMT -5
Hmm Sardonic, the head line is position two is a typo, that should be body, once he is tired I target head looking to get the KO. The line where it reads if opponent=1 could probably also be a body line to make sure we get him exhausted.
As for dropping to 1/1/18 if stunned I do that to allow the flasher to wear himself out, just wait him out.
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 14, 2007 0:53:38 GMT -5
Perfectly valid strategy, especially on the notion that you like(d) ropists with more SPD... thus, less str or less agl than most builds.
Remember, the build matchup is the most important thing -- what's right for a STR = SPD = .75(AGL) isn't the same as what's right for a STR = SPD = .60(AGL).
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 14, 2007 16:51:38 GMT -5
Slappers
I would define slappers as any build that will use 1 to 3 power at most in an attempt to merely outscore the opponent -- and survive the encounter. Sissies are most prevalent because, well, they don't have any other options. Non-KP dancers will also use this strategy on occassion, as will other builds.
From a ropist standpoint, these fights are often difficult due to the mass AP gain they'll recieve from (outside) as opposed to the lack of benefit you'll recieve from (inside). Let's compare some standard builds:
Strawweight, 0(0) Sissy: 3/0 15/20 9/14 5'8" vlite
Ropist: 13/0 15/20 7/13 5'1" vhvy
Obviously, (ropes) is out of the question. You know the opponent will be using lines like 6/1/13 (outside) and 7/1/12 (outside) to score and take as little damage as possible.
Your goal? Do as much damage as possible.
Allout and inside are your friend. With 3 STR and one power, they're not going to do much damage, so you do it for them. Use lines from 5B/11!/4 (allout) to 9/9/2 (inside) if they'll let you get away with it. Often, they will.
Just watch out for the KP variety, as if they sense you're kicking the tar outta them, they'll stun/KO reactively.
It's important to note that even in this matchup, where the opponent has only one real choice -- you _still_ have to tailor each fp to the opponent. The below fp probably won't work for most of you -- I was well aware of the opponent's tactics: Unnecessarily high AGG, and _never_ more than 1 power... with no KP. For me, this meant 'have a field day'.
The sample fight plan:
#start hard to the body, but don't allout in case it's expected in the first. 1) 5B/10/5 (inside) #No barriers now, eat that endurance like Pacman. 2) 5B/10!/5 (allout) #Standard 'Please don't DQ me' line. if warnings > 0 then 5B/10/5 (allout) #If he's throwing more power than I expect, switch away from allout. if endurance_percent < 90 then 5B/10/5 (inside) #If I misscouted the KP, up DEF just a bit. if mystuns > 0 then 4B/10/6 (allout) #Keep allouting to the body 'till 4. 4) 5B/10/5 (inside) #Up the AGG, but keep power heavy -- make him hurt. 5) 7/7/6 (inside) #...unless I've yet to be stunned. Then, make him pay for not trying. if mystuns = 0 then 5B/10/5 (allout) #If I'm down on score, though, I need to tighten things up a bit. if score < (round - 5) then 7/7/6 (inside) if score < (round - 6) then 8/7/5 (inside) #beyond this point, probably better that I just keep wearing him down. if score < (round - 7) then 5B/10/5 (allout) if score < (round - 8) then 8/8/4 (inside) #If the opp is exhausted, take advantage of it for scoring. if opp = 0 and score < 0 then 5H/11/4 (inside) if opp = 0 and score < 0 and mystuns = 0 and endurance_percent > 70 then 5H/10/5 (allout) #If I'm up on score, just pound the body while he tries to catch up. if score > 0 then 5B/10/5 (inside) #If I'm about to lose the fight -- go _hard_ for the stun. if score < (round - 12) then 5H/10/5 (allout) #If I'm down in the 11th, and need a quick catchup... 11) if round = 11 and score <= 1 then 5H/10/5 (allout) #Globals 1) if score > (14 - round) and round < 10 then 5B/10/5 (inside) if score > (14 - round) and round >= 10 then 5H/11/4 (inside)
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Post by seeingstars on Mar 15, 2007 20:08:22 GMT -5
Nice plan that is....
What kind of sissy manager were you fighting? was he using standard tactics like 6/1/13 and 7/1/12 (outside)?
Most people use those because they are only taught one way of using a sissy. After using them exclusively for years, i've found that there are other lines that can be used. i for one don't believe in the typical sissy standard of fight, but, that is a nice plan that you have there, don't mind if i steal it.
(SeeingStars copies the fight plan for future use and sneaks out the back door) :smile:
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Post by jimsardonic on Mar 15, 2007 20:48:55 GMT -5
Any plans I post here are certainly for the taking, but I subscribe more to the prospect of a smaller fp tailored to the opponent in most cases. I do run some premades, but, I'd be hard pressed to give them up on here -- 'cause then I'd have to make some new ones! I don't remember the specific fight I used that one in, but, due to the above I can be assured that it was tailored to that fight. I suppose it's got some general structure that can be worked off of -- but you need to take into account stuff like you mention. Often a sissy can use 3 or so power, and if you're allouting, you'll be winded before he is. Thus, endurance conditionals are a good idea. In my case, apparently, I didn't need to worry about that -- but it's certainly something to keep in mind. Endurance fighters are the hardest group to put into words... hopefully I'll have this cross-section done before too long
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Post by seeingstars on Mar 22, 2007 20:14:27 GMT -5
that's a nice breakdown....
geez jim, u should do the sissy one for me...u break it down nice...
i took that fight plan that u have...
i must say...i destroyed this guy with it...
no wonder why i stopped using sissies...
everybody sees a sissy, they think - oh yeah, we get to deal lots of free ips!! :-)
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Post by Evolve <Evil Empire> on Mar 24, 2007 3:04:34 GMT -5
Chuckle, I tried the fight plan twice and got knocked out both times. The one time though it was because the guy had hidden KP and used counter.
I hate when people do that, it was a lesson that Thor taught me in the Evil Empire private region but I still didn't scout KP on my opponent.
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