CounterSlugger

[readytobang]

ok
a CounterPuncher designed to be able to win an Endurance war or on the ScoreCard
so what are thoughts on how to do it

[jimsardonic]

Hm.

Could you rephrase the question? I'm horribly confused.

[jimsardonic]

*pokes you with a stick*

[NK]

Hm, I think he's talking about taking control of the power of the fight as if with a Slugger. Though with that many points invested into height and agility to make weight, your strength is naturally lower making such a scenario less desirable as you could use your speed and agility styles with much more benefits. If you fight a balanced or shorter fighter with a 'counterslugger' they will punish you quickly for trying to pound them away, though that by no way means you can't pound to the body for the endurance fight. You'd have to ask Jim for real clarification, as these are just my initial, untested thoughts.

Rereading your question, you are contradicting yourself by saying a fighter who can win the endurance war or the scorecard, which are mostly fight plan related and not fighter builds persay. Although I could still misunderstand what your saying.

[Evolve <Evil Empire>]

I had to call him on his terminology on the Evil Empire forum as well, what he means is how viable is a strong counter puncher as opposed to the KP Counter Puncher.

[chico]

Note: What follows are my impressions of non-KP counterpunchers from playing with the simulator. Any following posts from Jim, or anyone smarter than me override any of the points made in this post.

Counterpunchers are absolute monsters at lower status. For example, take an agile slugger welterweight build:
16 STR 0 KP
11 SPD 16 AGI
9 CHN 14 CND
low cuts 5'6"
VH 150/144

and sim it against a counterpuncher:
12 STR 0 KP
15 SPD 13 AGI
9 CHN 14 CND
low cuts 5'9"
VL 151/145

Both have 73 APs. If you put 4B/8/8 (clinch) for the slugger against 4B/8/8 (counter) and sim them against each other, you'll see that they do the exact same amount of damage as each other, only the counterpuncher is winning the rounds by a long shot. This is because the counter style is giving the counterpuncher 5.67 APs, while clinch is only giving the agile slugger 3 APs. Counter is an extremely powerful style.

Against a clincher:

22 STR 0 KP
11 SPD 12 AGI
9 CHN 14 CND
low cuts 5'4"
VH 151/145

The clincher is more efficient than the counterpuncher if he uses 4B/8/8 (clinch) against 4B/8/8 (counter), but only barely. In fact, in round 1 the clincher has to go 6/6/8 (clinch) to even tie the round, and with those lines, the counterpuncher is more efficient.

After 5 rounds of 4B/8/8 (clinch) against 4B/8/8 (counter), the counterpuncher has won all 5 rounds, and is at 75.6% of his endurance, while the clincher is at 78.9%. In round six, the clincher would still need to use 7AGG opportunistically to win the round, and even then, the counterpuncher is still dealing more damage.

8 chin, 13 CND ropists do seem to have the upper hand on counterpunchers, but clinchers and agile sluggers appear to have an extremely tough fight. I'd speculate that counterpunchers, if managed properly, could have a relatively easy time until diminishing returns on speed starts to be a factor at higher status, can someone else corroborate this?

[jimsardonic]

Wow, somebody did his homework Nicely done, Chico

A few quick responses:

Hm, I think he's talking about taking control of the power of the fight as if with a Slugger. Though with that many points invested into height and agility to make weight, your strength is naturally lower making such a scenario less desirable as you could use your speed and agility styles with much more benefits. If you fight a balanced or shorter fighter with a 'counterslugger' they will punish you quickly for trying to pound them away, though that by no way means you can't pound to the body for the endurance fight.

Though I see the logic in this, it's really not that simple. Ales 'Quiet Entrant" Clack (probably in my retireds) has been to the top, just to lose to AOP's Danceurasov Cper. The build was made initially to test how powerful (ropes) is -- and thus, is a very weak build. By packing on the AGL, I was maximizing the efficiency of (ropes) -- and though I had less STR than a normal ropist would have, I was also dropping the opp's AGL more.

It sort of evens out. Similar thing with CPers. If you can get a big enough swing of AGL, there's no match you can't win. Couple this with the fact that any opponent will have a hard time outscoring you, and you've got a tough build to beat.

I had to call him on his terminology on the Evil Empire forum as well, what he means is how viable is a strong counter puncher as opposed to the KP Counter Puncher.

Two entirely different builds.

A KP CPer, often similar in design to your standard KP Dancer (but with more SPD) is very valid. Using (counter) to flash is a popular tactic these days, and is use very effectively by guys like BKB, Bangladesh, or Likqid. The ability to score + the ability to flash brings an element of unpredictibility, and forces an opponent to be a bit more wary in the tactics that he chooses.

Strong Counterpuncher can have two meanings:

1) More of a 'speedy slugger'...

Which, imo, is unviable. In a sim that seems to slightly favor AGL-based fighters, less AGL is worse. By adding more SPD to a Slugger build, you're merely taking away it's efficiency with (clinch) and/or (inside) for the sake of scoring.

Dancers dance, sluggers slug.

If the goal is to wear them down before they get to the 12th, then there's no reason to have so much SPD anyway.

I wouldn't dare say that they couldn't win, ever -- just that they're a long shot, especially in the long run.

2) A strong build, as in, a well-built counterpuncher... in which, the question would be "How does a well-built CPer do against a KP CPer?"

The answer... just as well as any other build

KP is very dependent on a good manager... but I'd give the nod to the KP CPer on the basis that the non-KP version will have trouble finding an accurate style to boost his AGL enough to avoid a flash -- while having too little STR to be terribly effective endurance-wise.

[chico]

This is probably a good example. I had a fight last night against a clincher with a counterpuncher. The report is here:

www.vivi.com/cgi-bin/query.fcgi?+team_id=1264694&session=379&+command=query_scout&+competition=eko&+region=Contenders&+division=Heavy&+describe=1

This is the plan I used. You can see that there are some things I failed to account for, and it shows in the report. I don't really mind giving the plan up because I doubt that I'll manage counterpunchers again anytime soon. Besides, as always, it's very dependent on the exact matchup. Plus, if I have a stupid line in my plan that I don't know about it would be good if someone called me on it. Hell, I'll even post his stats next week after his last fight if you want.

# Bang the body efficiently early, without worrying about score
# too much. If he stays efficient, I win the rounds. If he wins the rounds,
# he's taking lots of damage and fatigue.
1) 4B/8/8 (counter)

2) 4B/8/8 (counter)
if score <= 0 then 5B/7/8 (counter)

# It's highly unlikely that he's winning in the fifth round, but if he is,
# then start countering opportunistically.
5) 4B/8/8 (counter)
if score <= 0 then 6/5/9 (counter)

if endurance_percent > 66 and opp = tired and score > 0 then 5B/7/8 (counter)
if endurance_percent > 66 and opp = tired and score < 0 then 6/6/8 (counter)
if endurance_percent > 66 and opp = tired and score < -2 then 5B/8/7 (counter)


# Seal the deal on the scorecards in the middle rounds by countering opportunistically
6) if score < round - 4 then 5B/7/8 (counter)
if score < round - 6 then 5/5/10 (counter)
if score < round - 8 then 6/5/9 (counter)
if score < round - 10 then 7/4/9 (counter)
if score < round - 12 then 8/2/10 (outside)
if score > 0 then 5B/7/8 (counter)
if roundslost > 0 and score > 0 then 6/5/9 (counter)


12) if score > 0 then 6/5/9 (counter)
if score > 0 and opp = strong and endurance_percent < 66 then 3H/6/11 (counter)
if score > 0 and opp = tired and endurance_percent > 66 then 6/6/8 (counter)
if score > 0 and opp = tired and endurance_percent < 66 then 6/5/9 (counter)
if score > 1 then 4H/6/10 (counter)


if score = 0 and opp = strong and endurance_percent > 66 then 8/4/8 (counter)
if score = 0 and opp = strong and endurance_percent > 75 then 8/5/7 (counter)
if score = 0 and opp = strong and endurance_percent <= 66 then 5H/5/10 (counter)

if score = 0 and opp = tired and endurance_percent >= 66 then 8/5/7 (counter)
if score = 0 and opp = tired and endurance_percent > 75 then 5H/10/5 (counter)
if score = 0 and opp = tired and endurance_percent < 66 then 8/4/8 (counter)

if score = -1 and opp = strong and endurance_percent > 66 then 5H/10!/5 (counter)
if score = -1 and opp = strong and endurance_percent > 75 then 5H/10!/5 (counter)
if score = -1 and opp = strong and endurance_percent <= 66 then 8/1/11 (outside)

if score = -1 and opp = tired and endurance_percent >= 66 then 5H/10!/5 (counter)
if score = -1 and opp = tired and endurance_percent < 66 then 8/4/8 (counter)



# GLOBALS
1) if score <= (round - 14) and round < 12 and endurance_percent > (33*opp+34) then 4B/8/8 (counter)
if score <= (round - 14) and round = 12 and endurance_percent > (33*opp+34) then 5H/11!/4 (counter)

# He's ripe for a KO
if opponent = exhausted and endurance_percent > 60 then 5H/10/5 (counter)
if opponent = exhausted and endurance_percent > 60 and score < (round - 12) then 5H/11/4 (allout)

# Score is locked up on the cards
if score >= 14 - round and endurance_percent >= 60 then 4H/6/10 (counter)
if score >= 14 - round and endurance_percent < 60 then 2H/4/14 (counter)

# Rest line, be sure to change the round periodically
if round = 7 and score > 0 and endurance_percent < 74 and (opp = strong or (endurance_percent > 60 and opp = tired)) then 1/1/8 (outside)

9) if opp > 0 and endurance_percent < 34 then towel
if opp = strong and endurance_percent < 55 and score < -2 then towel
if score <= (round - 14) and endurance_percent < (33*opp+34) then towel

[readytobang]

lazziness said:

Hm, I think he's talking about taking control of the power of the fight as if with a Slugger. Though with that many points invested into height and agility to make weight, your strength is naturally lower making such a scenario less desirable as you could use your speed and agility styles with much more benefits. If you fight a balanced or shorter fighter with a 'counterslugger' they will punish you quickly for trying to pound them away, though that by no way means you can't pound to the body for the endurance fight. You'd have to ask Jim for real clarification, as these are just my initial, untested thoughts.

Rereading your question, you are contradicting yourself by saying a fighter who can win the endurance war or the scorecard, which are mostly fight plan related and not fighter builds persay. Although I could still misunderstand what your saying.

it's highly related to both fight plan AND fighter build
your not going to win the Endurance war with a 1 STR Sissy

what it basically is would be a High Strength Counter Puncher
but that's like Slugging with a high STR so Counter Slugger is the name

[jimsardonic]

Mostly ineffective, and here's why:

Counter gives a bonus for height + speed.

If you're stronger, you're taking away the height aspect -- thus, lowering counter's effectiveness. Sure, you gain in the ability to use clinch -- but you're essentially getting "half" of each style, vs what the normal builds would allow.

A fighter with > STR and SPD than AGL is going to need a way to boost that AGL -- and if (counter) or (clinch) won't do the job -- he's just gonna take a bunch of IP's.

I'm not saying you can't win with one -- but don't get any WT aspirations unless you work the build out completely. And if you do, don't forget about (feint), too.

[readytobang]

Fient is a fairly heavy component of the FP's
generally I use a simple Bash but keep the score close
by late in the fight if they arn't tired enough to get KO'd they are usually at least tired enough that I can win the late rounds score wise

[jimsardonic]

Speed is dangerous in regionals. Faster fighters tend to do better, for a few reasons.

-- Low Status fighters don't have the necessary CON to run high AGG lines without taking heavy fatigue.

-- Due to less AP's to go around, (style) bonuses are minimized compared to what they can be at higher levels. More AP's = more possibility for larger variances.

This is partially why sissies and CPers are so successful regionally.

However, this is also why CPers usually die out around 26 status.

Not sure what your inspiration is -- if you're just looking to rack up a few blue stars, have at it! But I'd be surprised if you can get a build into the mid-twenties without losing an AP.

Best of luck!

[readytobang]

I dunno either but we'll find out

[seeingstars]

Chico, looking at your fight that you had the link posted up, there is no way the guy you fought could of been a clincher. He used the clincher "style", but a clincher at 5'8 would be a heavyweight, except with a vl build.

[chico]

seeingstars said:

Chico, looking at your fight that you had the link posted up, there is no way the guy you fought could of been a clincher. He used the clincher "style", but a clincher at 5'8 would be a heavyweight, except with a vl build.

I used the wrong terminology perhaps. I tend to refer to sluggers with less agi than agile sluggers collectively as clinchers. But, you're still right, the build wasn't a typical clincher build. To the best of my ability to estimate his stats, they were:

STR 26 KP 0
SPD 18 AGI 17
CHN 9 CND 16
V. Hvy 5'8"

[readytobang]

so far the Counter Slugger idea is working fine all the way up to status 18
that is where I tend to fizzle due to lack of experience tho
so I cant' say for sure if the build is a problem or not

[CODE BLUE]

I fight a few counter punchers ;D

[unforgiven]

I think alot of this question has to do with what a person classifies as a counter puncher. In general I would classify a counter puncher as balanced fighter with 4 or more ap edge in speed over str and agility:
at 18 Status:
str 20
spd 27
agl 22
cnd 16
hgt 0

Counter vs stronger fighters with simple 4b/8/8 lines to beat most clinching body lines to win rounds and keep endurance close enough that a strong fighter cant go inside. Vs weaker fighter he can use clinch or inside early then switch to feint to win the fight in the later rounds. Cons are the lowish agility leads to a need for higher chins vs kp fighters and an ip sponge in fights vs stronger opponents leading to a short career.

A good fighter type to use if you want to graduate from sissies to a more viable countering fighter type is an AOP style dancer:
at 18 Status:
str 15
spd 24
agl 24
cnd 16
hgt 4
bld- vl

This is generally a scoring fighter that dables in endurance to not be killed. vs strong fighters they use 4B/7/9 or 5B/5/10 to win rounds and keep people from compleletly opening up on them. vs a sissy he can generally use inside body and scoring lines then switch to feint and take the fight easily in later rounds. Vs kp fighters they can usually run ring and be relatively safe depending upon how late in his career he faces kp fighters. Cons are his lowish str allows strong fighters to put it to him early before they are forced to switch to scoring lines in an attempt to not give the fight away on rounds.

Like I said before this fighter is like a sissy but your scoring lines are going to be more like 5/7/8, 6/6/8 and less like 9/2/9, 8/1/11. AOP has won piles of WT on this fighter type as it really doesnt have an unwinnable matchup at high contender levels.

[Termit]

A good fighter type to use if you want to graduate from sissies to a more viable countering fighter type is an AOP style dancer:
at 18 Status:
str 15
spd 24
agl 24
cnd 16
hgt 4
bld- vl

This is generally a scoring fighter that dables in endurance to not be killed. vs strong fighters they use 4B/7/9 or 5B/5/10 to win rounds and keep people from compleletly opening up on them. vs a sissy he can generally use inside body and scoring lines then switch to feint and take the fight easily in later rounds. Vs kp fighters they can usually run ring and be relatively safe depending upon how late in his career he faces kp fighters. Cons are his lowish str allows strong fighters to put it to him early before they are forced to switch to scoring lines in an attempt to not give the fight away on rounds.

Like I said before this fighter is like a sissy but your scoring lines are going to be more like 5/7/8, 6/6/8 and less like 9/2/9, 8/1/11. AOP has won piles of WT on this fighter type as it really doesnt have an unwinnable matchup at high contender levels.

i've changed some time ago my Counters build to this what you wrote here and really they're quite easy to manage and i was more successfull with them than with "normal" build Counter (at least in Europe) so STR<AGI<SPD...hmmm...but there were a lot of KP fighters in my Home Region so it wasn't also so easy he he